HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998/05/22 - Board of Health�J
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 1 of 50
ATTENDANCE:
Tape #1
MASON COUNTY BOARD OF HEALTH
JENSEN APPEAL HEARING H
May 22, 1998
Cindy Olsen, Chairperson
John Bolender, Board Member
Mary Jo Cady, Board Member
Brad Banner, Director Health Services
Claire McElreath, Staff of Environmental Health Services
Paul Jensen, Attorney -at -Law
Stewart Sawyer
Peter and Mary Lou Aagaard
Sandi Sund
Robert Paysee
Ron Holsinger
Nancy Plews, Board Clerk
Sonja Rau, Transcriptionist
Cindy Olsen, Chairperson: We call this Mason County Board of Health Meeting for May 22,
to order. Ah...we have an appeal scheduled today.
Claire McElreath:
Cindy Olsen:
My name is Claire McElreath, and I work for the Environmental
Health Department and I have a packet of exhibits that I would like
to hand everyone.
Alright! Please do.
Thank you very much!
Since this is an appeal today, I'd like to swear everyone in, incase
they would like to testify. Could everybody stand and raise their
right-hand please? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Everyone standing: I do.
Cindy Olsen: Thank you!
Do we have a staff report?
Brad Banner: Do we ever!
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 2 of 50
Cindy Olsen:
Claire McElreath:
Cindy Olsen:
Claire McElreath:
Yes, it is pretty thick right now.
Hello! I am Claire McElreath, from the Environmental Health
Department. And a...I have a packet of exhibits, one through six
and they were presented at the Hearing Officer Hearing ah...the last
time, except Exhibit One, A Chronological Order of Events has
been updated. That is why you have an A and B Exhibit One. The
one that is pertinent to today would be the Chronological Order for
your review, as opposed to the Chronological Order of Review and
Submittal. The difference is the Appeal Hearing Letters that have
been received since the Hearing Officer Hearing in February.
So...ah um...and then the updated ah...or the new Exhibit Six which
is the Hearing Officers Determination and Appeal. That is since the
last Hearing Officer ah...presentation and it ah...has a final
determination letter by the Hearing Officer and Mr. Jensen's fax
and application of the receipt of the determination letter and it's
formal letter of appeal of the Hearing Officers decision. Um...if you
would like I can ah...go over this six exhibits. Um....
Yes, please!
Alright! Exhibit One is the Chronological Order of Sawyer
Review...um.
And the first one was in:
September 29, 1997 received a sewage application.
And in October 9th, 1997 a site review was performed by myself
And on October 16th, 1997 a reinspection was performed on the site
by myself.
And October 3rd, 1997 a letter from the neighbors: Paul Jensen,
Homer Willis, Gwen Jensen, Michael Willis to Environmental
Health Department, specifically to myself, was received. And the
letter listed 15 reasons or concerns why the Environmental Health
Department should not approve Mr. Sawyer's sewage application.
On October 25th, 1997 a letter from Enchanting Designs to
neighbor Inga Willis informing her of the proposed reduced set-
back from the proposed on -site sewage disposal system
ah...um...was sent to Ms Willis from Enchanting Designs. But it
involved a reduced set -back from the proposed on -site system to
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 3 of 50
her well.
And on October 28th, 1997 a letter from Paul and Gwen Jensen to
myself was received and the letter addressed Mr. Jensen's concern
with Mr. Sawyer's on -site sewage system design.
And on November 1st, 1997 a letter was received from Homer
Willis informing us that he opposes the on -site sewage system well
set -back reduction.
And on November 5th, 1997 a letter was received from Paul Jensen
to myself (Environmental Health Department) and the letter
addressed his concerns with Mr. Sawyer's on -site sewage system
design.
On November 5th, 1997 a letter was received from Enchanting
Design to Mark Tompkins and that...the previous Environmental
Health Staff...Environmental Health Department Director and Dr.
Trucksess explaining designs site waivers in light of State sites
should be approved.
And on November 5th, 1997 um...the Environmental Health
Department received a copy of a file Operation and Maintenance
Agreement.
On November 26th, 1997 um...CMC, that is myself ah...that was
Mr. Paysee. He is Enchanting Design representative, on the site
setbacks to insure information submitted with the waiver request
was correct.
On December 1st, 1997 waiver application for reduction setback
from well to onsite sewage disposal system was received and the
waiver application addressed the reduced setback from the 100 foot
requirement to 75 feet and the waiver was approved on December
22nd, 1997 based on um...the proposed system, which was a
Glendon, that net treatment standard one standard. (See #12 in
Chronology packet). That has to deal with DOD total percent
(garbled) people says they will treat to it to an
approved State level. It also was approved based on that the well
was not now in use and not a source of drinking water and that the
neighbors had been notified.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 4 of 50
On December lst, 1997 a waiver application for setback reduction
requirements on a second well to the proposed onsite sewage
disposal system was received and reviewed. And the waiver
addressed the new setback from the 100 foot requirement to 75 feet
and the waiver was approved on December 22, 1997 based on the
proposed system, which was a Glendon, that meet State Standard
One Standards and that if the onsite sewage system was installed
prior to the well drilling ah...um...they must retain a waiver from
the Department of Ecology.
And on December 1st, 1997 a waiver application for a setback
reduction from the septic tank to surface water was received. And
the waiver for a reduction in the required setback for septic tank 50
feet to 25 feet from surface water. And also a waiver from the
setback requirement from a pump chamber from surface water.
And that was reduced from 50 feet to 33 feet and the waiver was
approved on 12/18/1997 based on Class A waiver mitigation
requirements. Would you like me to explain Class A
waiver...just....
Cindy Olsen: No...fine.
Claire McElreath:
On December 1st, 1-997 a waiver application for reduction of
minimum design flow from 240 gallons to 120 gallons per day was
received. And the waiver was approved on...based on...was
approved based on limiting bedrooms to one...limiting the number
of bedrooms to just one and installing a time counter for the pump.
And finally, a notice to the deed, requiring seasonal use of
structure.
On December 1st, 1997 a waiver application for the setback
reduction from the disposal field, the Glendon, to surface water was
received. And it was requesting reduction from a setback from the
required 100 feet to 90 feet. And the waiver was approved on
December 22, 1997 based on the treatment provided by the
Glendon and the onsite sewage disposal system will have an
ongoing operation and maintenance plan.
On December 18th, 1997 a letter was received from Paul Jensen and
Gwen Jensen to Dr. Trucksess and the letter addresses the reasons
why Environmental Health should not approve the request - to
approve the five waivers submitted with the onsite sewage system
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 5 of 50
design.
On December 218t, 1997 Environmental Health approved
Enchanting...approved Enchanting Design Inc's design package.
On December 231d, 1997 Environmental Health sent a memorandum
noting conditional approval of Mr. Sawyers sewage application and
the conditional approval noted "need to provide a time counter, as
required by the waiver approval. Need to file notices of seasonal
use restriction with deed as required by the waiver of approval.
Must obtain a waiver from DOE if the onsite sewage system is
installed prior to the well as required by the waiver approval.
On December 24th, 1997 a...um...a design review and conditional
approval was given to the sewage application by Claire McElreath.
On December 29th, 1997 a...Environmental Health received
ah...ah...12/26/97 letter from Donald and Sandi Sund to Mark
Tompkins disputing Mr. Jensen's claim.
On January 9, 1998 Environmental Health received Mr. Jensen's
January 5th, 1998 appeal request. And the appeal includes an
attachment that lists 26 concerns/reasons why Mr. Sawyer's parcel
should not receive approval by Environmental Health for an onsite
sewage disposal system and it includes the recommended standards
for the performance, application, and operation and maintenance
program.
On January 12th, 1998 letter ah...from Ma...Mark Tompkins to Mr.
Jensen.
An unknown date of Mr. Jensen's submitted 1991 picture of
Sawyer's post hole with water attached
(garbled).
An unknown date of Mr. Jensen's submitted parcel maps to
Environmental Health showing Mr. Sawyer's lot in respect to well
locations, and cove locations.
February 19th, 1998 Appeal Hearing heard ending with the verbal
notice from Dr. Trucksess that a determination and report would be
given 30 working days from this date.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 6 of 50
An on March 5th, 1998 the Health Officer Final Determination letter
mailed out with notice of to file appeal within 30 days of the receipt
of the letter.
And on April 21, 1998 Paul Jensen called the Environmental Health
Office and informed us that he did not receive the final
determination letter. As such, he reserved the right the 30 day
appeal period starting that day. And he sent Fax to verify that
conversation.
And on April 4th ah...the 23' of April 1998 we received a formal
appeal letter from Mr. Jensen and the letter also requested that the
3/5/98 Final Determination Letter be sent to him via certified mail.
And then if we go to Exhibit Two it includes Site Data Information.
It's, it's ah...includes the flood, the Onsite Sewage Application that
has the soils information and ah...Coronary Site Data - that is the
exhibit to the Design Repeat and it also contains a Re -Inspection
Application that has also soils data and site information, not specific
to its design.
And in Exhibit Three we have the Waiver Applications, set three
and two. The first one dealing with ah...a setback to from the well
to the onsite sewage disposal system - it's a 100 foot to 75 per
request. And it lists on the second page on that waiver the
mitigating factors involved. Like we should approve it and the
determination by the Health Officer. There is another application
for a waiver that deals with the setbacks from the well
ah...proposed well to the edge of the proposed sewage disposal
system and the will be a reduction from 100 to 75 feet. And ah...on
the second page it tells the Mitigating Factor that needs to be
addressed before we can approve it. And ah...it was Hearing
Officer's decision. Another Appeal addressing reduced setback in
the septic tank and pump chamber to surface water - 25 feet and 33
feet perspectivly. And on the second page again, it stresses the
Mitigating Factors that must be addressed and ah...the Hearing
Officer's approval. And um...the additional waivers are the State
Waivers: a copy of the set...of our time waivers that have to be sent
to the State dealing with the setback of surface water to septic tank.
And ah... another waiver reduce the minimum design flow
calculation for a single family residence from 240 gallons to 120
gallons. And the Mitigating Factors that must be addressed before
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
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Environmental Health will consider approval and the Hearing
Officer's Determination. Another waiver request ah...reduction of
setback from the Glendon, the proposed onsite sewage system, to
the surface water from 100...the required 100 feet to 90 feet. And
again the Mitigating Factors that must be addressed by the next
date and the Hearing Officers decision and
Exhibit Three.
Now going to Exhibit Four. We have ah...a package of the Appeal
Request and Concerns from the Neighbors. Um...and the first
ah...is Mr. Jensen's Appeal. And he has a January 5th letter
attachment that list 26 concerns about why he believes the site
should not be approved. And then th...the attachment ah...Mr.
Jensen submitted concerning the Glendon Bio-Filter. And he also
attached the list of approved systems out of the State brochure for
Proprietary Devices.
And ah...um...another letter...um the concerns about why
Environmental Health should not approve this site. It has 15
concerns with it and it is from Mr. Jensen and the neighbors, as well
as, Ms. Jensen and Michael Willis.
And an October 28th, 1997 letter from Mr. Jensen. Ah... all of these
that a summary describes in my Chronology that I just filled out.
December 18th, 1997 letter to Mr. Jensen describing his concerns.
And on November 5th letter from Mr. Jensen and again, describing
his concerns.
Ah...ah...letter to Mr. Tompkins from Donald and Sandi Sund,
listing a reasons why...in support of Mr. Sawyer's development of
the property. And this attachment of a picture of the... one of the
soil holes with water in it ah...that Mr. Jensen submitted and it was
saying the photo taken from 1991.
And ah...a 10/25 letter from Mr. Paysee...from Enchanting Designs
ah...from an individual who explains Glendon and how he believes
the site should be approved based on th...the history of Glendon's
as far as treating and proposed that is why.
November lst letter from Homer Willis ah...saying that he opposing
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
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the reduction setback to the well. And this is a parental map, three
pages...three pages of a partial map Exhibit Four.
Exhibit Five is the actual design package Mr. Paysee submitted and
Environmental Health Department reviewed, making sure that
ah...everything on the design package was correct. The site
investigation and also via the regulations and when the regulations
were not meet waivers were submitted to address the reduction
from the regulation.
And Exhibit Six is the update from the last Hearing Officers
Meeting and ah...it includes the final determination from the
Hearing Officer, Dr. Trucksess. Ah...and that, that
ah...Determination of March 5th and the Hearing was February 19th.
Would you like me to read his conclusions or is that something
that...everybody would like to read that for themselves.
Cindy Olsen: Do any of you need it read out -loud? I think we can just read it.
Thank you!
Claire McElreath: Ok!
And a...then a letter from Mr. Jensen um...this was a...I guess
ah...on my copy I have the fax at the end and he received that
because...he received that saying that he was going to use the date
of this fax as his beginning of his 30-day appeal process. And then
the formal notification of the Appeal was April 23.
Thank you very much!
Cindy Olsen: Thank you!
Is the Appellant here today?
Paul Jensen: Yeah.
Cindy Olsen: Yeah!
Paul Jensen: Ok!
Cindy Olsen: Please state your name for the record.
Paul Jensen: Paul Jensen. The issue here is a very small lot, and a very small
cove where the lot is very close to the water. This is salt water
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 9 of 50
with tidal, with shellfish, mussels, clams, oysters, all inside the cove.
Me and my family are the only full-time residence living right on the
cove. Homer Willis is another full-time resident living on the other
side of the proposed site and then to my left there is a summer
residence. The other leg of the cove is a spit, it is out in front. At
low -tide, you might say extreme low -tide, there is just been very
little bit of water inside the cove. And the distance at high -tide
between our side and the spit is less than 100 yards, so we are
talking and there are a couple of diagrams I've submitted. I've
tried accurately to represent both the sides of the cove and the
openings.
The question that we have here is the Glendon System.
I submit that the Department and Designer made mistakes when
they filled out the application for the Glendon System. The
manufacture has specific requirements when the Glendon can and
should be used. I submit that this site does not meet the
manufacturer's requirement and I will go through most of the major
points in that regard.
First of all we need to determine whether the Glendon System is an
experimental system. I submit that it is. I have previously
submitted and it looks like this. It is a copy of the WAC 246-272.
You should have a copy of...if you do that, you do not have for
some reason the second page of my exhibit. Down at the very
bottom, again this is October 97. I just looked through mine, so
maybe you just happened to miss mine. But down at the very
bottom of the second page, when I identified Glendon Bio-Filters
Sewage Systems it says "DOH experimental program." The whole
issue here is monitoring. Is the Glendon System an except able
system; is it going to work great for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years
without any type of monitoring or just the basic monitoring under
the State Program? Or is it still a experimental system that requires
the application of the WAC 246-272-9501? Under that specific
WAC it lists annual requirements that must be done to experimental
systems, such things as monitoring; such things as having backup
systems or at least space for backup system in the event an
experimental system fails. That is what it is all about. You don't
want to have people purchasing, spending good money to purchase,
small pieces of property with terrible soil. We are talking classic
soil's here. Were talking a piece of property that is facing north, so
it doesn't have the benefit of the sun in order to have the
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing H
May 22, 1998
Page 10 of 50
evaporation of waste water. So...and were talking very close to salt
water and so if you don't have evaporation and the system fails -
that waste water is going down into the salt water. Now it is not
going down into something like to Pickering Pass or the north end
of the Canal where you've got a lot of flushing. Your talking about
a place that is going down into a very confined pool with a tidal
flow, you know, being relatively restricted. This is my concern.
I say that under this WAC that it is an experimental system, simply
by the State definition, and therefore, this other WAC requiring the
annual State monitoring - a backup plan and everything needs to be
in place.
Secondly, in the event that the Department convinces you that it is
not an experimental system, and for some reason they maybe have a
new WAC or they've done something else or for some reason this
doesn't apply. The manufacturer itself under the Glendon Bio-
Filter Standard Guideline, that I believe everybody is going by, it
states on the second page (and you have copy of these) "that any
application of the Glendon Bio-Filters outside the conditions,
allowances, or criteria described" in these design standards
"constitute an experimental system and must be approved by
DOH." And it cites the same WAC that I was talking about, 246-
272-9501. So I am saying that by definition the Glendon Bio-Filter
is an experimental system that needs that WAC to protect the
Public Health and Safety and to protect the shellfish in the salt
water we swim in. Secondly, since it cannot meet and I am alleging
and I will show you why it cannot meet these design specification
standards, that makes it an experimental system. Now this isn't Mr.
Sawyer's fault, alright? He has chosen to live at this property. It is
salt water and we all know you don't grow more salt water and it is
a nice area. I mean, I love this place and that is why I am here. But
we take a look at the property and we take a look at the cove,
being so close to the water is the problem. Now if this property
was designed...or I should say, this particular lot was created from
an estate and they'll probably get into more about. One person
owned a large part of the south end of the island and through the
years it was just basically divided out and this one little lot
was...you might say the...the bottom end of the barrel. Everybody
else had different sections and this little lot ended up on the end. It
is not build able, you know. It doesn't have the size requirement
and it is too close to the water. Now, they submitted a diagram of
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 11 of 50
the property on his design. We didn't talk about how small this
thing is and that the...the last page...it has a plot plan. Now it
marks it that...the long head...ah or to the short edge that runs
basically east and west. It is 115 feet. Now when you get done
reading all the documents, you'll find out that it is only 80 feet to
the water - to the high water mark. So it is not 115. The actual
stake is out on the tide lands. Likewise, what we'll call the
southern line, is not 157. It is really 143 to the high water mark.
So that shortens it up considerably. Now we'll take a look down
here - their whole system, their whole Glendon Bio-Filter System,
the only place they could possibly try and fit it in is up here...well it
should say down here in the south east corner of the property.
And you'll notice 5 foot setbacks. So they say this is where it can
go. They did not include, if you go back to his number 18 on his
application, he needs a curtain drain on the uphill side of his
Glendon Bio-Filter. And he stated it - on number 18 of his
application. "Storm -water. Installer must install...er, excuse
me...installer must install provide storm and surface water diversion
to protect Glendon Bio-Filter absorption area." That makes sense!
Lets keep the storm water from getting into the system and
contaminating it so your not trying to treat the storm water along
with the waste water. So the problem is, he couldn't fit it in! He's
crammed back so far now, here. He is down to the exact five foot
setback. So what does he do? He just leaves it out of his design.
He says, "heck, the department can go it in here, so here, he
doesn't know it. Nobody is going to catch me." I am sorry but this
is the truth! This is why I am here! And it upsets me! When you
put in the curtain drain then you have to put in a ten foot setback
from the Glendon Bio-Filter. That is stated in the WAC. So you
need a five foot setback from the property line. That...that you
might say that that is in here, but now your going to have to have a
ditch. Now the ah...curtain drain is probably going to be dug, you
know, maybe with a backhoe. It is going to be about two feet wide
and that is got to have a... a catch in it and it has got to keep the
storm water away. And then under the WAC your going to have
another 10 feet in this south east corner. In order...setback from
the beginning the edge of the Glendon Bio-Filter. That is going to
push this whole Glendon Bio-Filter System down the hill closer to
the water than he has in his diagram. Then he goes, `will heck,
now my problem is...I can probably get this whole thing in...if they
don't catch me there, I can probably get this whole thing in here
...you know, within...you know...to 90 feet of the water." But he
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 12 of 50
goes, "I still need a reserve area.. What am I going to do about a
reserve area? The statutes in the WAC requires a reserve area."
He says, "I just go and ask for a variance." Everybody, did he ask
for a variance? Is there an approved reserve area? No there is not!
When you look at all the paperwork, he does not have an approved
reserve area. The reserve area that he has on the diagram is even
downhill from his aprov...his approved drain field area. Now I've
done the calculation. Under his system, I come up toward the edge
of his reserve area, just as he has done. Without a curtain drain it
would be 80 feet to the high water mark. Now he asked for a
variance for this primary area, to be within 90 feet. My calculations
put it at 86 1h feet. That is with...not including the curtain drain
that is required. So he is already 861/2 feet when he is only suppose
to be 90 feet. Now again, were talking from the surface water.
Were not talking from his well and were not talking about the
reserve area that he hasn't even applied for a variance for. Again,
Mr. Sawyer doesn't know this...doesn't know any of this. Again, I
am not trying to say that he is trying to pass anything off on him.
Just the same that these are the facts and these how the figure work
out. You know, it doesn't...you can do it with a tape measure. Ok.
So then we get here. We go back to his plan and see what else he
has to... submit on his application. Page one under the Standard
Form. He says that, "soil type is...the rating is one through six. He
puts down five. Is that true? No! This is class six. It is worst than
he put down! I got paper after paper, you'll find it when you look
through this stuff. It is the class six soil. He couldn't make it fit
with the class six soil, so he reduced it to a five.
Glendon Bio-Filters, next point. Glendon Bio-Filters need less than
20 degree slope in order to work properly. And between 0 and 5
degrees, you do certain things and you make certain calculations in
order to make sure the Glendon Bio-Filter System is going to work.
Between 5 and 20 degrees you make other calculations. Over 20
degrees the manufacturer says, "that Glendon Bio-Filters will not
work." They will not work if it is over 20 degrees. So what do we
have here? He puts down 17 degrees. Is that correct? No! We go
back to the County, they say on page 2 of their re -inspection 30
degrees. They've got a 30% slope in one direction plus 20% slope
in another direction. Yet, he knows a Glendon Bio-Filter won't
work with anything over 20. So what did he put down on his
application? 17%. The whole problem here, people, we're trying
to get a system in that is not made for this property and the County
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing H
May 22, 1998
Page 13 of 50
doesn't have the resources...they are not willing to call it an
experimental system so nobodies really going to be monitoring this
thing. It is going to get in there and it is going to fail and it is going
to pollute this little cove, that I happen to live on. Now note, I
swim in, my kids swim in it, my neighbors swim in it, and Mr.
Sawyer is going to swim in it. But when you have a system that is
set up to fail, the way this one is because they are not following the
manufacturer's requirements and their not following the State
Guidelines - then this thing is going to fail!
So I am saying that it...number one, by definition this is an
experimental system because it is an experimental program and
therefore, that WAC that requires monitoring be in place and that it
have the extra room. We all know there is no extra room here.
There is no way for this property to meet this WAC. Now if this
County wants to put in a... or approve a holding tank , you know
like they have out on Steamboat Island, where they have the truck
going around going around pumping it out - I cannot object to that,
because I know that his waste water isn't going down into the
cove. Now whether the County has that kind of system or
approves those kind of things, but they pump out...you know. But
the tight line is into a container and then we are done with it. That
is one thing. That is not what they are trying to do here. They are
trying to say that this system will work, and this system is designed
to evaporate all of the waste effluent. Every time you flush the
toilet, every time you wash dishes, every time you take a shower - it
goes down into this system and then it comes up and then it will
evaporate. Again, I am saying it simply won't work because it
doesn't meet the manufacturer's design requirement.
Also, the class six soil (Garbled) . It faces north, it is not facing
south. You don't get the benefit of the sun. Um...it is not going to
evaporate. What does the Health Officer do when he takes a look
at this? At least...at least they put on a seasonal use restriction,
saying...you know, when they first approved this thing, "yes, it is
very marginal," you know, it requires four variances when really
th...when you add in the reserve area it requires five or six. They
are saying, at least seasonal use restriction. Dr. Trucksess even
removes the seasonal use restriction. Nobody appealed, nobody
said we don't like that. They had the Glendon field. They
didn't...it was a seasonal use restriction stated right on the
He takes it out! He says, heck you don't need that, you can go
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 14 of 50
ahead and live there year around. How many other properties...I...I
presume that there are a lot of other properties in this County that
have seasonal use restriction, saying you didn't meet the
requirements or if you did meet the requirements they are so
marginal, were not going to let you live in them year round. I
appeal, - Trucksess took a look at this stuff - Sawyer says, gosh I
didn't want that in there - Trucksess takes it out. Now, they can
live in there...anybody can stay in their motor home 365 days,
regardless, whether or not the system is working. Is there any
monitoring? No, there is no monitoring setup. They say yes there
is. I haven't seen it...here. And they're talking about the owner is
suppose to monitor it himself and then...you know, once a year
your suppose to have a certified septic engineer come out and take
a look at it, or something like that. But I haven't seen any
paperwork and I have asked for every piece of paperwork that they
have and I haven't seen any specific plans for monitoring. It...I am
stuck. Basically what is happening, me being the neighbor, I've got
to be the policeman that is going to be...you know, watching these
people. Dr. Trucksess says, Ok, I will take away the seasonal use
restrictions as long as only two people can stay on the property.
What kind of deal is that? Would you like to be looking over your
fence everyday and counting the number of people on your
neighbors property to see if they got too many people using the
system? The County says ya own...the minimum design is 240
gallons a day. You need to have a system that can handle 240
gallons. What does the designer do? There isn't enough room for
240 gallons a day. What does he do? He says lets cut it in half, lets
see if that flies. So he files for variances. We don't really need
240, we can get by with 120, lets just divide everything by two.
Oh, it fits! Abbra kadabra! No that is not the way it works.
People have friends over, people do things on their property that
use water. There is a reason why the State and the County have
agreed they need 240 gallons a day and you just can't simply take it
away because the lot is too small. That just isn't the way it
works...that isn't how you protect the public safety. Ok.
Lot size - distance to the water, distance from the well. Let's go
back to the design...the manufacture design specification. This is
really getting down to the heart of it or I should say, this is a
voluminous and...sorry, if it feels like I am mad, but it is an awful
hot issue here. On the manufacturer's design pamphlet "Glendon
Bio-Filters Interim" on page three there is that 2.4 site requirement
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 15 of 50
Your kidding! It does have class six. Now, I gotta say...this is
another example, the kind of clean up, just soil to label to
class six. They decided with the designer, it wasn't going to fit, it
wasn't going to work. You have to be a class five. So they say
Ok, will make it a class five. There is documentation in here that
they changed it from a class six to a class five and the reason is
because the Glendon sits high. It sits withing the top twelve inches.
So the County says, will gosh, we don't have to count all of the
modeling, all of the play, all of the hard stuff down below. We're
going to just rename it, instead of the six, were going to name it a
five. Well, when you get down to the second requirement, it talks -
its at a check off - a strata of impermeable soil or bedrock including
very slowly impermeable soil. So the manufacturer knows that his
system isn't going to work in soil of that type. It doesn't matter, it
is under 2.4.2. So they can go to...they can call it a five, they can
call it a six - the fact is when you go look their site evaluation, it
talks about very heavy modeling. It talks about clay, it talks about,
basically impermeable soil or what the manufacturer calls very
slowly impermeable soil. That picture that I submitted, 18/1991
that is an example. That has standing water in it. That soil does
not perk. That is the bottom line. And where is the waste water
going to go? If it doesn't evaporate, it's going to seep out of the
system and it is going to go down in the cove. It is just that simple.
Every time they flush the toilet, going to shower, every time they
wash dishes be it one person, be it two people or be it them and
their kids - people want to have their kids over. Based under Dr.
Trucksess report that is not allowed. Only two people. So does it
mean they are suppose to put up a gate that keeps people out? Is
this suppose to protect the County from liability? The issue here
is...the point is that under even Dr. Trucksess evaluation the land is
not going to hold the Glendon Bio-Filter System. And even if they
want to try it under an experimental system, it doesn't meet the
WAC. So we have...under that 2.4.2, it has to be free from in order
for the system to work...I got to clarify that a little bit cause it's a
little confusing...it has to be free from the following conditions: 1.
maximum seasonal high ground water level, which it has. You have
a picture that shows it. 2. A layer of crevassed or porous bedrock.
(Well at least it doesn't have that.) 3. Strata of impermeable soil or
very slowly impermeable soil. It has to be free from that and yet it
has that, therefore, the property does not meet the manufacturer's
design requirements. Therefore under 2.2.3 it is an experimental
system in WAC 5001 applies. Ok.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
, May 22,1998
Page 16 of 50
Other requirements for the site: it has to have a maximum slope of
20° or less. As stated in the Departments own section its ah...30°
going another way and 20° the other way. It doesn't have less than
20° slope, and therefore, it doesn't meet the design...manufacturer's
diagram requirements, and therefore, it's an experimental system.
Likewise, under 2.4.4 the sufficient suitable area for initial and
replacement area to meet horizontal setbacks as specified in WAC
90501. Again, this site doesn't have an approved replacement area,
therefore, it doesn't meet the manufacturer's design requirement,
therefore, it is an experimental system. So, what was
misrepresented: we have a soil misrepresentation between a five
and a six; we have a slope, that is certainly over the 20% slope and
he is calling a seventeen water source - we'll talk about that. Did
he know or did he could have fit it in? This is a small lot, he
doesn't have a water source. What does he say? Number 8,
Enchanting Design, Water Source - property is served by existing
community water system. That makes it easy! He doesn't even
have to worry about it - you pipe it in from the existing community
water system - he doesn't need....
Unknown Person: Where is that?
Paul Jensen: On number 8 of Enchanting Designs. He doesn't have to mess with
it. Come to find out, he doesn't have a...an existing community
water system. He needs to drill a well. Well, gosh! A well won't
fit, so of course we all know, you drill your well close to the water.
That is where he comes in with his design. They figure it out that
they are going to have to address... since the County can't approve
it, unless he figures out how he is going to get water. So he says I
will drill one close to the beach. The problem is when you put in
your curtain drain, your required curtain drain under number 18,
that pushes it down the hill. Your pushing him closer towards the
water, but your also pushing closer to the well he needs in order to
serve the system. And that now again is going to be closer to his
primary system and now you put his reserve system. Now most
wells...I mean the very minimum are going to be sitting back 12, 15
feet from the edge of the bank sitting on the well. So, you can say
if you put that well in the northwest corner, since this is going in
the southeast corner, ah...you know that 80 figure talking 65 feet to
the well. That puts his primary system probably within 60 feet of
his well and within 50 feet of his reserved area. Again, outside the
parameters that the County, I think, can even variance for permits, I
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing H
May 22, 1998
Page 17 of 50
would hope. So, we got the water source misrepresentation by the
designer in order to help get this thing through.
Decommissioning Report, now this is a little bit complicated
where...I'll...we'll go through it. There is an old well. Homer
Willis has the well right next to the property and he stated that I
don't want any taint - a 700 foot set back. I think we all know that.
They say, well gosh, we want to go closer. So they write up this
letter and have his wife sign it. His wife is, you know, family
member type. Again, largest in the family all want to stay...years
ago all been divided off, something like that. The WAC says, I can
point it out, that anytime you have it closer than a hundred feet a
decommissioned well report signed by a certified well drilling.
They don't bother to do it, because they know there not going to
get it. Homer is not going to decommission his well in order to let
them put their septic system closer to it. He just isn't going to do
it! So, Dr. Trucksess blows it off he says, heck it's alright, we
don't need it. He disregards the WAC. The WAC is very
clear...ok...under WAC 272-9501, you got it? A sub 5 down at the
bottom, that says before any component can be placed within one
hundred feet of a well the designer shall submit a decommissioned
well report provided by a licensed well driller, which verifies the
appropriate decommission procedures noted in the chapter of the
WAC were followed...blah, blah, blah. Once this property is
decommissioned you can go ahead. They don't bother to do that,
they simply say, Oh, it's ok, Paul won't catch it or will go ahead
and we'll get it through anyway. No! This is a State requirement
and it hasn't been met.
As I stated we have no approved reserve area. A nice little spot on
the map, but... I don't think you...he realized he wasn't going to be
able to get a variance for the reserve area closer to the salt water
than the primary area, so he didn't even bother to try because he
knew he would get it turned down. Maybe, maybe not! Who
knows why he don't even have it. Everybody else has to if they
want to have a reserve area closer than 100 feet to the water,
they've got to apply for variances. That is what the rules are for.
You don't simply not apply and hope it goes through. No one is
catching these things. And it is an experimental system, whether
you agree with me or not. The purpose of reserve area is if in the
event it fails for some reason, you've got a back up. What are they
doing? They got the reserve area closer to the well so were going
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing 11
May 22,1998
Page 18 of 50
to get into even more danger of salt water and shellfish
contamination when they start using their reserve area. It is not
right! The idea is to have enough space to where the public is
protected. You don't simply avoid the issue by not applying for the
variance.
The last one, again, that he missed is just to summarize is the failure
to state the curtain drain. That stays on this report. And again, on
this same sheet the same WAC 9501 talks about the 10 foot setback
requirement from curtain drain. Again, by having the curtain drain
it is going to push this whole system, basically, 12 feet closer to the
water and 12 feet further north, which is going to push it closer to
Homer's well, and it is going to push it closer to his well, and it is
going to push the whole system closer to the salt water.
I didn't exit very smooth. (Garbled)
Cindy Olsen: I am sorry!
Paul Jensen: Go on.
Cindy Olsen: That's alright. Are their any questions for Mr. Jensen?
Mary Jo Cady: Not yet.
John Bolender: Not at this time.
Cindy Olsen: Ok. Um...I don't believe we got a list of the people attending. Is
there one on the podium there?
Unknown Person: I think there is one right here.
Cindy Olsen: You want to bring that up to me, please?
Nancy Plews: I don't think everybody signed.
Cindy Olsen: Did everybody that wanted to testify sign that?
Unknown Person: I didn't sign it!
Cindy Olsen: That way I will know who's names to call.
Was there anyone else that needed to sign it?
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 19 of 50
A long pause and paper rustling, coughing and so on while signing the attendance sheet.
Cindy Olsen:
Stewart Sawyer:
Thank you!
Mr. Sawyer, your on here with a yes. Would you like to be on here
next?
I am here...my name is Stewart Sawyer and I ah...am the
prospective buyer of this parcel of property. I do live with my
ah...wife in Bellevue ah...and we have a permanent residence in that
city. Ah...ah...a couple of things just so that we've got the
administrative things taken care of. Have you taken into the record
a copy of the letter and exhibits from my attorney that were
presented at the hearing with Dr. Trucksess?
Cindy Olsen: Are those in here?
Claire McElreath: We haven't got it back, today also, from the attorneys your
involved with.
Stewart Sawyer: Yes, yes.
Claire McElreath: This...I would like to, probably, turn this back.
Stewart Sawyer: Fine!
Cindy Olsen: Thank you!
Stewart Sawyer: The one I am referring to would look something like this....
Mary Jo Cady: This is the entire packet he is talking about?
Claire McElreath: This is the size of the pack. I...don't know about this.
Stewart Sawyer: This is the one we presented, originally, to Dr. Trucksess at the
original hearing and was asked....
John Bolender: Is there a date on it?
Stewart Sawyer: The date is February 18t.
Nancy Plews: I can verify that you don't have copies made.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 20 of 50
Cindy Olsen: Ok, no...we don't then?
Nancy Plews: We don't.
Stewart Sawyer: I can give you this copy if that is what your....
Cindy Olsen: Ok. So should we number these as one and two.
Paul Jensen: I don't have a copy of it and I am....
Stewart Sawyer: He has a copy from a prior hearing. It is exactly the same material
we presented at the original hearing on February 19t.
Cindy Olsen: Certainly...certainly he can take a look at it to verify that is the
same. We haven't seen it before, but....
Long pause and flipping of papers.
Mary Jo Cady: Do I understand Mr. Sawyer that you don't own the lot right now?
That your just....
Stewart Sawyer: No.
Mary Jo Cady: Ok!
Stewart Sawyer: The lot is currently owned by the Sunds and the Aagaards. And I
am at the point ah...I am simply ah...trying to wade through the
ah...the details of trying to ah... accomplish the purchase.
Brad Banner : I don't recall...I looked in my stuff. I don't recall getting this and
maybe it is because of the tagging. But I don't recall getting it.
Cindy Olsen: Those are the materials from the previous hearing?
Stewart Sawyer: Those are exactly the materials we presented at the previous
hearing.
Claire McElreath:
I...I've never seen that. It must have been something that was
submitted after I talked at the previous hearing. Something after
the fact.
Mary Jo Cady: Mr. Sawyer, would you mind if we would remove the tabs from this
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 21 of 50
and we could get copies right now.
Stewart Sawyer: Absolutely fine with me.
Mary Jo Cady: Brad, could you give this to Dianne and see if they'll get us some
copies?
Stewart Sawyer: And you have before you now a copy of the letter from my current
and lawyer, Babbitt Stites & Lombard ah...indicating a number of
different issues ah...with the current appeal.
I would also like to enter into the record at this time ah...and again,
I have a few copies here. There was a question raised by Mr.
Jensen at the prior hearing that indicated that we had no right of
easement for power lines over the property, and therefore, couldn't
get power to it. This is a quick claim easement that indicates that
we do have...we do have the right of ah...ah...access power on that
property.
Cindy Olsen: Ok.
Mary Jo Cady: Do you want to enter that as exhibit number one?
Cindy Olsen: These are both the same?
Mary Jo Cady: Um huh.(yes).
Cindy Olsen: Shall we do this...the attorney's then?
Mary Jo Cady: Um huh (yes).
Cindy Olsen: Letter is one...
John Bolender: First let me date it.
Cindy Olsen: The easement is record as two and then when we have copies of the
previous hearing, we can enter those also.
Stewart Sawyer: Now...now I could sit down and do as Mr. Jensen has done and
gone over in detail all that...I've wished we'd have done it
before. But I think that...quite frankly, that ah...this group can read
those as well as I can present them. A number of them are the same
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 22 of 50
things that have been presented by Claire ah...and the County. A
lot of them are simply the diagrams of various things, including also
the appeal by Mr. Jensen and so forth. I think it would be probably
redundant...redundant to go through all of that, unless desire that I
do so.
Mary Jo Cady: Actually this is a brand new hearing we have no ah...
Cindy Olsen: We have no previous knowledge. Yeah.
Mary Jo Cady: ...prior knowledge of this case.
Stewart Sawyer: Then I could...if you prefer I could go through each individual piece
of it.
Mary Jo Cady: We've got all afternoon.
Cindy Olsen: Um huh (yes)
Stewart Sawyer: Then I would need to get it back, so maybe we could go forward a
little bit till we get the copy back.
Cindy Olsen: Ok!
Stewart Sawyer:
I think the issue here is that a...is really being oviscated by Mr.
Jensen. Um...I will say right up front that Mr. Jensen's sole
purpose in this entire proceeding is not to have that pieces of
property developed under any circumstances. He has on several
prior occasions opposed and has killed the sale of that property and
at this point in time ah...hopefully, he has run into an opponent that
is not just going to give up - no way! He certainly would hope that
would occur and that this particular piece of property could just sit
there. He has not offered to purchase it. He characterizes it as a
very small plot of property ah...and in fact, it is relatively small.
However, it should be noted that it is a...a...one-fourth of a plotted
plot of property of which Mr. Jensen bought three plats and left the
fourth one himself It is a recorded platted property for residential
purposes in Mason County and has been so for some years.
Um...My original application which was submitted to the County,
was submitted on the 29th of September, has been indicated. There
was substantial delay's all at the instance of Mr. Jensen. And I
might point out to the Board here, that Mr. Jensen has taken every
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 23 of 50
possible opportunity the ah...ability that...to ah...lengthen this time
frame to the maximum amount he can. So that every appeal that he
has put in, has only been put in at the absolute last day of the
appeal.
Paul Jensen: Now, I am going to object to that. I filed this thing within 2 days of
notification.
Stewart Sawyer:
I would go on to say that if you would look at the record you'll find
that what I am saying is true. I would also like to point out that the
hearing was held on this thing on February 19th, 1998 by Dr. Mark
Trucksess. At that hearing, Dr. Mark Trucksess stated, very
clearly, that the decision would be reached within 30 days - 30
working days. You count the 30 working days, you'll come up to
sometime about the 4th of April. Now Mr. Jensen, who is an
attorney in Mason County, is an Officer of the Superior Court in
Mason County, I presume. Is a man who is professional, who is
certainly understanding of time frame and the fact that there are
certain things that must be done at points in time - waited until
substantially two weeks after that time, to even make an inquiry of
Mason County, whether in fact there was any decision made. I
would submit again that simply that was another delaying tactic on
his part. He very conveniently at that point in time said, Oh, I never
got the letter! Interesting that he would not make any comment or
he would not make any inquiry of the County prior to the time of
two weeks subsequent to the 30 day frame. And I believe quite
frankly, that the only reason he made that was that he happened to
see me and my contractor, Bob Paysee, and designer, Bob Paysee,
Sr.and Jr. out on the lot looking at the situation, as we were now - I
had gone forward to ah...to make the design requirements that the
County ah...or that Dr. Mark Trucksess had come forward and now
came for a site . I had again contracted Mr. Paysee to
deliver that site plan to the County, which they have done so. I
would say that it is very interesting to note that shortly there after,
which that happen to be on Saturday the 18th. On the 21st,
interesting enough, Mr. Jensen called the County and says, Oh, has
there been any decision made. And finding out that their had been
said, will I never received it. That was some significant period of
time after the 30 day time frame had even begun...had a...had
elapsed based on what Mark...Mark Trucksess will tell you. I find
it very difficult to believe and I think it would stretch the credulity
of anybody to say that ah...was something that was not deliberately
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22,1998
Page 24 of 50
planned by Mr. Jensen. In each step of this whole process, I have
done my absolute best to comply with everything that the County
has asked of us. I have gone to Bob Paysee, who is an
acknowledged designers of septic systems, is an accredited designer
of septic systems in Mason County. He is one of the few designers
that has the authority to design the Glendon Bio-Filter System. The
Glendon Bio-Filter System is a very advanced septic system. It is a
system which ah...in fact delivers nearly drinking water quality to
the effluent at the drain field. And then I would have loved to have
had Bob here today to discuss this situation with you, but
unfortunately he has had a stroke ah...and he had a doctor's
appointment and he could not make it. Thankfully, he is recovering
very well from it. In addition to that, I have contracted with Bob
Paysee's son, Bob Jr., who is an accredited installers of the
Glendon System, one of the few...or two, I believe, accredited
installers of the Glendon System. Ah...we have gone and the
Glendon System is admittedly a more expensive system. One you
would call the Cadillac of septic systems. And we have gone to
that extra step to protect the environment, because quite frankly, I
am very interested in protecting that environment as well. I would
say to you that the danger to that environment at the cove from Mr.
Jensen system, which is a conventional septic system, also within a
very short distance from that cove, is probably, considerably more
of a danger than is the Glendon Bio-Filter System that I would
propose to put in. It is very clear ah...that I have ah...that ah...that
Mr. Jensen doesn't desire to have any improvement to that property
ah...and has taken every possible step that he can to argue around
that. He has gone so far as to put ropes up...to put ropes around
the property to try and keep people off or whatever. I have no
idea. He has gone in and cut down blackberry bushes on both sides
of the property line, including the...the site on the Aagaards.
Claims that, obviously, I have no standing in it at this point in time,
since I don't own the property. Ah...I only assume that he does
that so he can see over into the property and see what is going on.
I have no idea what his motivations are.
But by in large, what I would say to you is, I don't believe in my
own heart that the County has done wrong. I have hired, as I said,
Bob Paysee. Bob is a designer. He has designed over 40 Glendon
Systems in Mason County. None of those systems have failed. I
believe the County has worked very closely with him. Mr. Jensen
would try to characterize this entire situation as a conspiracy with
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 25 of 50
the County and Bob Paysee to try and do something - I am not sure
what his conspiracy is, but it smacks a bit of almost the X Files.
Ah... and quite frankly ah... as I went over the information or as I
looked at what he had to say, I had...I had to guess ah...a couple of
things. He indicates the slope is 30%. The County has gone out
there with Bob Paysee; they have measured it using measure
equipment. The slope is 17% in the areas the Glendon System.
There are places within that...that ah...that deal that it is, 30%,
played within the property of course. As you go further down the
hill the property does tend to ah...go off into more deal. It is
interesting to note that he would characterize...that is, Mr. Jensen
would characterize it, that were going to have all kinds of brown
water runoff into this system. It is interesting to note the system is
on the high corner of the property! That in fact the property line or
the property (garbled) run that system downhill both ways.
He talks about the seasonal use restriction. The seasonal restriction
was opposed by me, on a couple of grounds I guess. Simply one,
that I am going to be standing. I have...he was asked to put that on
the ah...deed. I don't own the property, so I can't put it on the
deed at this point in time. There is no other piece of property
around that cove, and in fact, there are three other homes around
that cove that are right on the cove and none of those have a
seasonal use restriction placed on them. I simply asked, and said
an...and, as my attorney require...requested in the first place, that
that information or that the seasonal use restriction be removed,
simply because (a.) there ain't nobody else had it and (b.) there was
a considerable restriction placed on the property itself that said it
could only be a one -bedroom house placed on it and that that one -
bedroom house could be place on it could only be out a 120
gallons.
Ah...Mr. Jensen has characterized myself and my wife as people
that hold back alien principles, that we'll have ah...guest that will go
and urinate out on the ground. And he stated this in a hearing
before Dr. Trucksess. I would say that is an interesting thing, since
Mr. Jensen has never meet me prior to the hearing with Dr.
Trucksess.
Um...he talks about Homer's well. Homer's well and as you will
note in the letters that were submitted, there is a letter in there from
Inga Willis that says that well has not been in use by Homer or the
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing n
May 22, 1998
Page 26 of 50
Willis' for over 25 years. They have, indeed, another well on their
property that is farther up nearer their house. Ah...that is
substantially away from this...the property that were talking about
and that is the well were currently using. The predictor one that
ah...Mr. Jensen says, is simply a well that has not been used - it is in
total disrepair and has not been used by the letter from Inga Willis
for over 25 years.
So we come down to the issue of what really is Mr. Jensen's
object...what are ah...his idea of what he is trying to do? What he is
trying to do is not allow anybody to use that beach property. He
doesn't want to buy it himself - he just likes to see it sit there.
What is happening here is that he is depriving the Sunds and the
Aagaards of a...economical use of that property. And as I indicated
it is a platted residential property in Mason County. And what my
proposal is and what I plan to do with it, is that my family and I
have a motor home. As I say, we currently have a permanent
address in Bellevue, Washington. We plan to maintain that address
in Bellevue, Washington. What I would like to use that property is
to put my motor home on it and use it for recreational purposes on
a...on a seasonal bases. When I say seasonal, I mean, we'll likely
use that property, something like, 50 days a year. Now, 50 days a
year if your using a motor home especially, since I have owned one
for some 30 years now. Motor homes are designed for all kinds of
low flow systems, including both kitchen facilities and ah... shower
facilities, and sink facilities and so forth. In fact, they don't use
anywhere near amount of water that they typical household would
use. As a general example, I can tell you, after having camped in it
for substantial amount of time, that I can use the entire...I can go an
entire 3 or 4 days with that motor home and we will use less than
ah...70 or 80 gallons of water. Now, he would characterize that
this particular thing could have a closed flow of 120 gallons a day.
I can tell you that we're going to put in and the design includes a
holding tank and that that holding tank will then pump up to the
Glendon Bio-Filter System. That holding tank is going to be a
holding tank of a 1,000 gallons or more. (I can't remember if it is a
1,000 or 1,200 - it was one of the two.) I can tell you that it will
probably very likely take me nearly a year to fill it to start with
before the thing ever begins, you know. I guarantee you that it
would be almost impossibilities for me to use the amount of water
that is talking about um, ahm...in that system that ah...120 gallons a
day.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 27 of 50
I have agreed to the restrictions to a one -bedroom. I think that it
makes sense, but I think that restriction is sufficient to protect the
property. And that there is a time dosing requirement on it, a
holding tank requirement on it, which all add substantially to the
cost of the system. And my objective, obviously, is to, as I said,
protect the environment of that cove. I believe the County has
done everything they can possibly can to meet all of the objections
of Mr. Jensen. I think the County has bent -over -backwards to
allow him to even come to this hearing. Ah...on an appeal just after
substantially...substantially, after he has done or after the time
frames or required of Dr. Trucksess's thing. And I can tell you that
the County... I believe that the County People here have worked
diligently to try and help us get through this very difficult situation.
I think they have done a great job and there is nothing more that I
can say about that.
I am not a professional designer of septic systems, that is why I
hired Mr. Paysee. Ah...that is why I am relying on the County
to...you know, inform me of what needs to be done. I think they
have done that and meet that burden of proof. And I think that Mr.
Jensen's objections are frivolous...ah, and quite frankly, in spite of
the fact that he would love you to believe that all the things he says
are absolutely true and so forth, I think he has a much different
motivation than to protect the environment of that cove.
Did we get the copies back?
A long pause.
Nancy Plews: Partial.
Claire McElreath: Here...the body of the.... You can leave these if you want them
done. Do
you want to share the treadmill these ? (garbled).
Stewart Sawyer: Ok! The ah...ones that you have, what it is is a letter prepared by
my lawyer but presented by attorney Anne Lawler at the February
19th hearing.
While the orig...the first piece of it is a letter to Dr. Trucksess,
relative to the Jensen Appeal. Going through several things: The
summary and basically what this is that Mr. Jensen does not have
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 28 of 50
standing. His sale meets the standard requirements set forth in
Environmental Heath Policy 1B2C....
Paul Jensen: Again, and the second thing is...I've...I've got to...for the record I
am objecting because this was not presented at that other hearing.
Stewart Sawyer: I'm sorry...I'm sorry sir but that is a direct lie!
Paul Jensen: Yeah, and....
Cindy Olsen: Let's....
John Bolender: I...I...I'd would presume a review of the record would demonstrate
whether a lie or not.
Cindy Olsen: Yeah!
Stewart Sawyer:
Secondly the Glendon System approved for the Sawyer site meets
all County and State Health requirements. The Glendon System
proposed for the Sawyer site meets all the manufacturer's
specifications for that system and that has been attested to by both
Mr. Paysee at that hearing before Dr. Trucksess and by the County.
The Glendon is designed for/and installed at the site accordance
with County required mitigation measures, other than the seasonal
use restriction, which we opposed. We'll be protective of human
health and the environment. And a decision of this allowing the
installation of a septic system on the Sawyer site would constitute
an unlawful case. And then the letter goes on to discuss each of
those particular summary points. Now, I think you can get that and
if we enter that in evidence you can read those at your leisure.
Beyond that we have a number of the same kind of things that were
presented by both the County ah...first of all we have the Mason
County Department of Health Services. This is a memorandum
ah...to Bob Paysee from Claire McElreath and indicating that we
need to provide a time counter, need to file a notice of seasonal use,
etcetera. And it is ah...ah...inquisitive design criteria and so forth
by Enchanting Design.
The second thing is a design of the system itself ah...which are
a... are... a... are liquified papers ah... and that is the ah... shows the
exact design of all the pieces of that system.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 29 of 50
The next thing was Mason County Department of Health Services,
the application for waiver appeal. Ah...and this is reduce of setback
from the well to the edge of the disposal to 75 feet. Also, another
one that reduce the setback from ah...um...the well um...and a site
plan of the same ah...would be ah...of the system.
And then a notice of operation maintenance of the onsite sewage
system that was required before ah...in front of ah...required to be
filed on the deed and was signed by Mary Lou Aagaard and Donald
Sund.
Claire McElwreath: Got four more to go and I didn't hear the copy of the machine I
brought down. I don't think they....
In the interims we had the meeting...the minutes from the Hearing
Officer.
Mary Jo Cady: Good, lets get back....
Cindy Olsen: Oh, ok. Yeah!
Stewart Sawyer: I apologize for the delay here but a....
Cindy Olsen: That is quite alright.
Stewart Sawyer: I had a....
A long pause and rustling of paper.
Stewart Sawyer:
We were about to set on this...this ah...back court documents
(gabled) aren't any. I guess it is on page 23, 37 where Ann Lawler
starts her presentation that she just got this...the letter that I am
talking about which was February 19th letter and begins then to
discuss all these differences (garbled) within that time,
which was...was at that point in time, presented in the hearing.
Ok, the next thing was the...um...a letter from Enchanting Design
ah...was reputing some of the things and indicating various ah...
items which ah...indicated the system did meet the requirement of
the ah... County.
I wouldn't doubt that this...in this involve that the ah...120 gallon
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 30 of 50
restriction came from the...Mason County requirement that a two -
bedroom home have a 240 gallon, we agreed to go to a one -
bedroom restriction on the house if we should ever decide to put
one. I have no plans on putting a house on the property at this
point in time and we felt that that restriction alone was sufficient
ah... to guarantee use of the system in conformity with the Glendon
Bio-Filter System, and therefore, that the seasonal use restriction
would not... was not necessary.
Claire McElreath: It will be another minute.
Cindy Olsen: Almost?
Claire McElreath: Almost.
Stewart Sawyer: Unfortunately, I had a... or my Attorney had requested that this
information be provided to you ah... and had the information been
done before and we had not properly inquired so I would have
copies, so I apologize for that.
Mary Jo Cady: Brad, can I get a clarification from you from Dr. Trucksess order?
Number one he says, a notice...a notice on will be recorded with the
Mason County Auditor on the property title stating that resident
will be...residence will be restricted to one -bedroom serving a
maximum of two -residence for a combine daily flow not to exceed
120 gallons.
Brad Banner: You omit the "on" and read it.
Mary Jo Cady:
I'll omit the "on" and rid of that. But combine daily flow not to
exceed 120 gallons. So, um... say they have company come,
combine daily flow over what period of time? Like over a week
or....
Brad Banner: The way that works....
Mary Jo Cady: How does that work?
Brad Banner: The way that works ah...the way that works there is time dosing. It
physically will not put out more than 120 gallons per day. It is
timed at specific doses. Little tiny doses, certainly, throughout the
day but no more and that
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 31 of 50
End Tape #1
Beginning of Tape #2
Brad Banner:
Stewart Sawyer:
Mary Jo Cady:
Stewart Sawyer:
Mary Jo Cady:
Stewart Sawyer:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Little tiny doses, certainly, throughout the day but no more. So
that is the reason the first tank, where the pump is so that that can
equalize out over a period of time. If they consistently over a long
period of time, are using over a 120 gallons a day, it would...high
level of alarms would go off and it would go off and they would
have to deal with that. But that system...it... cannot physically...will
not accept more instead - only 120 is all it is going to take.
I'll try and make it somewhat clearer. There is a storage tank and
that storage tank, as I indicated, is 1,000 gallons of water or so.
Alright? Sewage will dump into that storage tank and over time
that tank will then be emptied by the pump into the Glendon Bio-
Filter System, and it only has a rate of 120 gallons per day.
But...that is what I want to understand. We...we're concerned
about the system. Mr. Jensen was talking about looking over the
fence, you know, and counting how many are there. How many
people are there isn't the factor it's...its what the dosage is and the
timed pumping.
And the system is designed to not put out more than what the
Glendon Bio-Filter System is already set.
I...attach seven on this ah...is a letter that you've heard before from
Mr. Tompkins.
We still don't have a copy of this. It's...(laugh)
Iamsorry!
...it's hard to follow you with.... Could we take like a fifteen
minute break or something until we get this thing?
Yeah, why don't we do that?
Or ten minutes?
Let's recess. Yeah.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 32 of 50
Cindy Olsen:
Stewart Sawyer:
We'll call this back to order then.
Thank you! The ah...a attached spec is the revised and updated
interim standard and guidance of use for the Glendon Bio-Filter and
ah... several pieces of information on bio-filtering.
Pak eight is the letter you previously...previously...I mean pak
seven, rather, that you previously to Mr. Tompkins from the Sunds
and Aagaards. Rebuttals from Mr. Jensen's argument. Ah...and
then pak eight is the ah...the letters from Mr. Jensen and several of
the of the pictures, of course, that you previously seen that exist
from the County. And ah...pak nine is also ah...a December 18th
letter from Mr. Jensen ah...arguing several of his points. And
ah...the last part...or pak ten, the last one you have, is the letter
from Inga Willis that basically says, the well on the property has not
been used for over 25. That with the original letter ah... of February
18th to Dr. Trucksess from by Attorney, Ann Lawler, ah...which
comprise the ah...the material that I would like to submit and place
into ah...into that (record).
I would then like for you to take ah... administrative not of the
current letter from Ann Lawler to the Board of Health, to the
attention of Nancy Plews, dated May 21, 1998, which you have
previously been furnished. I would like you to call your attention
to point one in that letter. And in that point one it indicates
ah...that "Mason County Hearing Officer's decision must be
affirmed because Jensen has failed to meet his burden of proof.
The burden of proving the hearing officer's action was invalid lies
with Jensen, as the party challenging the decision. See RCW
34.05.570 (1) (a). It will be a difficult burden for Jensen to meet
because great weight is given to the Mason County Hearing
Officer's (the "Hearing Officer") factual findings. Hearing Officer's
findings are reviewed for substantial evidence and alleged errors of
law are reviewed de novo.
Jensen's appeal involves a factual determination. Thus, he must
prove to this Board that the Hearing Officer's decision is not based
on substantial evidence. See RCW 7.16 ,120(5). Substantial
evidence is "evidence which would convince an unprejudiced
thinking mind of the truth of the declared premise." Freeburg v.
Seattle, 71 Wash.App. 367, 371, 859 P.2d 610 (1993). In
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 33 of 50
Freeburg, the court explained this burden as follows:
[We view] the evidence and the reasonable inferences
therefrom in the light most favorable to the party who
prevailed in the highest forum that exercised fact-finding
authority, a process that necessarily entails acceptance of
the fact -finder's views regarding credibility of the witnesses
and the weight to be given reasonable but competing
inferences.
In the case at bar, the Hearing Officer was the last fact-finding
tribunal. Thus, the Board of public Health must examine the record
before the Hearing Officer. There is substantial evidence to support
the Hearing Officer's decision. The Hearing officer heard
exhaustive testimony on the septic tank design and its applicability
to this site. Mr. Sawyer's submission alone consisted of ten
exhibits and a brief from his attorney. Based on the testimony and
the documents submitted, the Hearing Officer found that the
`proposed septic design is satisfactory ans will not be a threat to
public health.' The Health Officer found that `Variations to WAC
246- 272 have been adequately documented and mitigated in a
manner consistent with state and local regulations and policies.'
There is sufficient evidence in the record to persuade a reasonable
person as to the truth of the Hearing Officer's findings. In fact, in
his written appeal, Mr. Jensen did not point to one defect or error
in the Hearing officer's decision. It is common practice for an
appellant to specify the grounds for an appeal. See generally RAP
10.3 (appellant must make assignments of error); see also RCW
36.70A.290 (growth management hearings board requires a
detailed statement of the issues presented before the board).
In the case at bar, Mr. Jensen simply stated `I hereby appeal your
decision.' As of this date, Mr. Jensen has filed no documents
identifying the error in the decision. It is incumbent on Mr. Jensen
to submit some basis for the appeal or reason stating why the
decision it is being appealed. He cannot rely on a bald assertion.
Based on the evidence in the record and the naked appeal, there is
more than substantial evidence to support both the Hearing Officer
and the Mason County Department of Environmental Health."
In short, one of the things Mr. Jensen would have you believe in his
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 34 of 50
testimony that he is an absolute expert in Glendon Bio-Filters. In
fact, there has been no evidence presented, whatsoever, that Mr.
Jensen has ever been an expert in installation or the design of
Glendon Bio-Filter System. But in fact, we did present substantial
evidence that Mr. Paysee is and has successfully put these systems
in Mason County in over 40 different installations, none of which
have failed.
Paul Jensen: Objection! That was not put in evidence.
John Bolender: There was ah... testimony at the Hearing Examiners.
Cindy Olsen: I thought, in the minutes....
John Bolender: ...hearing in the minutes that reflect those comments. In the
minutes of the hearing examiners hearing.
Paul Jensen: He noted some failure.
John Bolender: He noted that there was a failure from the first one that was
installed and there have never been....
Cindy Olsen: (Garbled).
John Bolender: His statement was that "there had never been any since." That is
what is reflected in the....
Cindy Olsen: I was reading that in here too!
John Bolender: ...in the minutes of the.... I can locate them for....
Paul Jensen: I found it.
John Bolender: Ok!
Stewart Sawyer: In summary...and I know I have taken a lot of your time, but in
summary I truly believe that we have done everything we possibly
can to alleviate the concern of the County, to alleviate the concerns
of placing it on this particular...this particular piece of property. If
the County in its sense of wisdom would be...would be...would
decide against...the septic system on this particular property - it
would be virtually a piece of property that would be unusable and
ry \\
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 35 of 513
would loose all its economic value for a term. The ah...conditions
of sale on this particular piece of property are that it would have...it
be able to put in an adequate septic permit. And I ask that you
reaffirm Dr. Trucksess's decision as he came out in his May 5th
letter. Thank You!
Cindy Olsen: Thank you, sir!
Mary Jo Cady: Thank you!
Cindy Olsen: Are there any questions at this time?
Mary Jo Cady: Your honor, I have a lot of questions that I'd like to hear the rest of
the testimony.
Cindy Olsen:
Peter Aagaard:
You want to get through the rest of the testimony?
Ok.
I have a yes behind Mary Lou Aagaard 's name.
Yes, that is my...my wife.
I am Peter Aagaard, Mary Lou's husband. Ah...I will state we
approached Mr. Donald Sund, my brother-in-law and myself
approached Mr. Jensen to see if he would buy it. In fact, we
approached him twice. The first time he come up with some
particular price and so therefore, we just let it sit. The second time
he wasn't interested at that time.
According to his testimony this almost sounds that ah...that a...the
designer is...is...has no idea what he is doing or anything like that.
This...this system is an experimental system. I can't hardly believe
that this system that iS already..., I've got forty of them up there
could possibly be an experimental system and certainly the State
wouldn't have that many systems out there if it was an experimental
system, I don't believe. Um...as far as that system goes, I think
its...its longevity is probably better than a gravity system, I am sure.
I am not a designer, ah...so therefore, I for sure say that. Um...as
far as that well is on Mr. Willis' property, it has not been used for
25 years like the State advised and I know for sure it is a
hand dug well. Ah...the person that lived there prior to Willis's was
my wife's uncle. We are related to the Willis'. And a he ah...had
that well dug ah...years and years back. The house was built back
in 19 and so I am not so sure the Willis's even got a septic
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 36 of 50
system up in there, thinking of it! I happen to know those
people... so but anyway, ah... so that might have to be looked into
and then surely enough that is going to ah... prove to be cove and I
am sure Mr. Jensen's gravity system, I am sure he got, is polluting
in the cove. Ah... if there is any pollution in there. Um...anyway,
think that is about all I got to say that ah...I appreciate your time.
Mary Jo Cady: Thank you.
Cindy Olsen: Thank you, sir.
Next yes on the list is Sandy Sund.
Sandi Sund: Hi, I am Sandi Sund, Don Sund's wife who is part owner of the
property. Ah...on behalf of my husband and my sister-in-law Mary
Lou Aagaard, who lives at the property, we respectfully request
that the Board stand by it's original decision of approving the septic
system on our property, this is so we can finalize the sale quickly.
And it is to bad Mr. Jensen has nothing better to do with his time
than to waste other people's time and money - at least some of us
had to take time off of work to attend the appeals. Um...
concerning this matter and also to question the integrity of the
Health Department and Mr. Paysee. We have been most anxious to
settle this matter but realize that the Health Department has had
many factors to review and investigate, and therefore, respecting
the Boards expert knowledge, we have been patient. However, we
have watched Mr. Jensen and his fairs
(garbled).
I would also like to point out as Mr. Sawyer did, Mr. Jensen was in
the same room as we all were and we heard Mr. Trucksess say that
their decision would be made within 30 days. Ah...Mr. Jensen
turning in, well after the 30 days, ah...claiming he never received his
letter. Ah...we fill this is a stall tactic. Again, we respectfully,
request the Board to stand by it's original decision. And thank you
for your time.
Cindy Olsen: Thank you!
Next on the list that has a yes is Ron Holsinger.
Ron Holsinger: Well, greetings to the Board. I have meet a few of you, but not all
of you. My name is Ron Holsinger and I am an Associate Broker
Realtor with Caldwell Banker, up in Gig Habor and I have been in
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 37 of 50
the business for a long time. Almost 37 years, 36 of it has been
selling property ah...almost more than I have in Gig Harbor. It has
been a wonderful County to work in and I have known many of
your Assessors, Planning Engineers, and the Health Department
through the years and have really enjoyed have ah... just doing
business in Mason County. And I have often used Mason County
as a good example of the way to work. Now we have a lot of
difficulties with the logging companies, like King and Pierce County
but Mason County, I should say ah... know what they are doing and
we really get the job done. This is ah... once in awhile we have
hang ups and that is alright, and it is alright to appeal too because
neighbors are important. However, I feel that ah... ah... I just want
to testify for you that ah... that we've taken since about last July
when I first meet Mr. Sawyer. We finally wrote up an agreement to
purchase the property in early August. We have been working very
diligently for months and months and months to try and make this a
system ah... that is really going to work. Mr. Sawyer has from the
start has had every intent to take his time working with the soil
engineer and using a retired one that was recommended by the
Mason County Department Health and so Mr. Paysee was hired on
that basis. That he was a good man, a truthful man, and that he
would do the work as a professional and so he was hired. And he
has done this. Mr. Paysee, in spite of some health problems off and
on, ah.... Loves that kind of work and has been doing it for years
along with his son and so we have had numerous conversations,
sent a lot of faxes back and forth, and he is tough. He is not easy!
He knows the requirements by Mason County, doesn't always
agree with everything, but a... he said, you know this Glendon
System,.... And it is not a new system and it is proven and certainly
the State would not approve it if it wasn't approved somewhere
else and it has been used throughout the United States and Europe
for many years. Finally, we have been trying to get it in the Gig
Harbor area for about 25 years and we finally made it a few years
ago... about five years ago. So it is a very expensive system. It is a
system that will probably cost Mr. Sawyer ah... and it looks like
they just raised the price it another $1,000 because of this delay,
over $13,000 just for this small system. And we are only getting it
approval for one bedroom. There are a few compliance that a...that
have to be made as a result of the certainty determination by the
Mason County Department of Health and a... Mr. Sawyer has every
intent to do that and has so hired Bob Paysee's son to move ahead
in that direction and do all that is required. There is no reason to
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 38 of 50
do otherwise and it certainly has been reason for me to believe that
a... that when Mr. Paysee says a 17 degree slope and he explained it
to me in detail. He said yes, if you ever hold down the
begin to work, but the ones up above do and they found a spot, up
in the south east corner that qualified. And a... his character and his
business reputation wouldn't be what it is and certainly... he
certainly wouldn't be recommended by Mason County if he hadn't
been forth right in all of his work through the years. So he has
made a.... So he called me one time privately, this Glendon System
is so good I should put it on a barge without any soil - it would
work. I'd make it work! He said it's that good. And we have
large corporations putting it up in Gig Harbor. The new
educational credit union a few years ago, put in this same system
and there are a lot of employees in that building and a very small
piece of property too.
I think that ah...I could reaffirm that a... Claire and a... Mr. Paysee,
the soil engineer, had been together and testified the last hearing in
early March that a... or I believe it was March. That a... they had
reaffirmed... went out there and measure... re -measured everything
to make sure all the distances were correct. And they were.
Everything qualified, meet all the demands of Mason County Health
Department. So I just wanted to make sure this was all done and
done in detail and you have approved it and you did it because of
the length of time and all the work that has been done and in the
meantime Mr. Sawyer has been happy to pay Mr. Paysee to keep
him going on this situation, to keep everything alive.
I would just like to confirm that a... Mason County Health
Department has a good reputation throughout the State for being
very strict and doing a good job in all areas. They've certainly been
doing good to me through the years and when you approve the
situation ah... then I know your homework has been done and it is
full approved and I would recom... I would highly recommend that
you pursue this line of thinking, that you realize the intent of Mr.
Sawyer ah... is honorable. I have been on the beach, I see no
oysters, there maybe clam, I don't know. I don't see anything there
that a... that tells me this lot does not work. I should show you
some of the sites that I have had to sell through the years, you'd
realize what a great site this is. It is a gravelly soil, it did works,
Mr. Paysee has done the work. He has put in the right system and
as long as Mr. Sawyer is willing to pay the bill, which he has agreed
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 39 of 50
Cindy Olsen:
to, it should be a happy situation.
Thank you, sir.
That is everybody who has put a yes behind their name from the
audience. Was there anybody we missed?
Ok.
Mr. Banner?
Brad Banner: Can I say a word?
Cindy Olsen: Oh, you certainly may.
Brad Banner: I am Brad Banner, Health Services Director. And a... Claire and I
would like to touch base on a couple of issues made at this hearing.
There are a lot of complex issues involved in the site, and in
addition, you know that our regulations are guidelines and our
standards give us a web of requirements, the things that are difficult
to follow and can be confusing, especially when they are thrown
out kind of shot gun fashion. Ah... so if the person isn't really
familiar with our requirements, why we do things and why we make
the decisions we make in the approval process it may look odd, as
far as our relationships with the people we work with. I just want
to touch base on that to begin with. Our Department philosophy is
to respect the rights of people to do what ever they want to do on
their property, provided they protect public health and we meet the
regulations. And... and... and in addition we coordinate and work
as closely as we can in all our partners in this. In other words, if we
were at war with the designer or with the applicant, we wouldn't
get anywhere, we wouldn't be protecting public health, we
wouldn't be doing our job. And so we do work closely with the
designer through out the process and when it is difficult site, it is a
process that we go through. We learn things along the way, we
take modification are made and etcetera.
I would like to start out with, for just a minute, an explain the
difference between an alternative and experimental system, because
that... those terms have gotten thrown around quite a bit.
Those terms are explained in the State Regulation WAC 246-272.
They actually have definitions. An alternative system, this is in
WAC 246-272-01001 definition: "Alternative systems, means an
onsite sewage system, other than an conventional gravity for
conventional pressure distribution system. Properly operated and
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 40 of 50
maintained, alternative systems provide equivalent or enhanced
treatment performance as compared to conventional gravity
systems." Now there is a sub -set of alternative systems called
experimental systems, let me read that... definition. `Experimental
system means any alternative system: (a.) Without designed
guidelines developed by the Department or (b.) propriety device or
method that has not yet been evaluated and approved by the
Department." So, to make this clear, alternative systems are
systems out of the ordinary, not conventional sites, not
conventional gravity, that either have guidelines or they are listed
on the list of Department Of Health approved propriety devices.
This is this document here. Now this document is called an... I am
afraid that copy machine... we should make copies of this probably
and have it in the zone, so....
Mary Jo Cady: I think we have that.
Cindy Olsen: We have that in are...packets.
John Bolender: We have that in one of the....
Mary Jo Cady: Design package one?
Cindy Olsen: Yes it is.
John Bolender: Number five?
Claire McElreath: It is only the front sheet.
Mary Jo Cady: Well...fuwie!
John Bolender: Now that I recognize the cover....
Brad Banner: Well, we can make copies of that. Can I just proceed and ...
Cindy Olsen: Please! Yes!
Mary Jo Cady: We'll include a full copy as evidence and mark it number four.
Cindy Olsen: It will be number four, yes.
Brad Banner: Towards the back of it in section C-1, and by the way, this is dated
Mason County Board of Health
Jansen Appeal Hearing II
May 22,1998
Page 41 of 50
October 1997. The copy is updated periodically. There is a section
called Treatment Standard One and Two, it says "Overview.
Applications, performance standards to marginal sites by using
alternative onsite sewage treatment systems." And then there is a
bulletin, it says "for other more marginal situations or site for the
desired development raises health protection issues to be addressed
by the system designer. The rules employee the use of two
performance standards: treatment standard one and treatment
standard two. The use of treatment systems that have
demonstrated the ability to use treatment standard one and/or
treatment standard two, can reestablish the balance between the site
condition, the development, and public health and environmental
protection." So that is the purpose for using a system and for using
those treatment standards - it is for marginal loss and we agree it is
a marginal loss and that is the purpose for using these. Now there
are two tables in here. There is a table that...that list the system
that meet standard one and the Glendon Bio-Filter is listed under
both list, as meeting treatment standard one and treatment standard
two. And a... I just point out to it, here and here. We'll make
photocopies. This will be an attachment.
Secondly, it is on the list under the second called sand filters. And
here is the propriety devices and it is under Glendon Bio-Filter
Treatment System, M-3, M-31 and it talks about the gallons per
day and etcetera and the manufacturer. So... that is the status of
the Glendon Bio-Filter unit.
Now what is our experience with it, I think that is another
important issue. Before we approved a single first Glendon Bio-
Filter unit in Mason County - I believe it was Pam Denton, Mark
Tompkins and I drove out to Kitsap. We meet with the ah... the
Director of the Onsite Program for Kitsap County Health District
and we went on a tour and talked with some of their applications,
because they had been using it for a couple of years before us.
They took us out to one particular site that was pretty graphic. It
was two homes that were on the water, side by side. Their was a
mound system on one and a Glendon Bio-Filter on the other. They
looked virtually identical, they both looked like mounds on top of
the ground. The tide periodically came up and caused problems.
The Glendon worked but the mound system didn't work under
those conditions. It was a... Kitsap County gave us a very high
recommendation for these units. Since that time we have used
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing 11
May 22, 1998
Page 42 of 50
Mary Jo Cady:
Brad Banner:
Mary Jo Cady:
Brad Banner:
them in some of the most difficult sites in the County and we used
them on repair situations that were so mucky and muddy that it was
just... I just didn't see how anything could possibly work. And the
thing went in and it is working fine still in that particular situation
and others. So, we have had good experience with Glendon Bio-
Filter.
Reserve Area: the best management practices for the reserve area is
actually spelled out in literature that the reserve area when your on
a slope can be an additional placement of sand adjacent to and
downslope from the Glendon Unit. The same spoke through for
the mound system. They are the same in that because it is the sand
surrounding the Glendon that actually disposes of the affluent that
has been treated into the soil. So if you got a slope they allow... in
addition and in fact on the... in the attachment I have marked that.
You can see how that is designed here. That is in R... section five,
design package. And so you have the unit and the primary and the
reserve down below.
How do you answer Mr. Jensen's concern that it takes it that much
closer?
The set backs that are maintained... are maintained are measured
from that reserve area. So we designed the thing for the reserve
area. If that was the primary we would use the whole set back.
So your numbers are from that setback?
That is correct and they are all shown there.
Water use... water use... water use, ok. I would like to clarify the
issue of 120 versus 240 gallons. And to do that I have to refer to
the State WAC again, 246-272, section 11501 design and under it
says: "The local Health Officer and the department shall require the
following design criteria. There is a, b, and c. C says the onsite
system is designed to treat disposed of the following flows. For
single family residence 120 gallons per bedroom per day with a
minimum of 240 gallons per day, unless technical justifications are
provided to...for calculations using a lower design flow." What we
have done in this case is we have done, in other cases when we
need to is, we required... there is a design... the time dosing, has
only been allowed a certain amount to go out, so that is a safe
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 43 of 50
guard. We have warned future property owners throughout, a
certificate of residential use, that that is the maximum that should
be going in there and we have gotten enhanced treatment in the
Glendon Bio-Filters.
Initially there was a seasonal restriction, seasonal use restriction and
the origin of that came from staff. The staff were reviewing ah... ah
some of these waivers and we had ah... information that, well it is
just going to be used for recreational RV and that seemed like a
good mitigation to put in. Ah... that was objected to prior to the
Health Officer's hearing. We did discuss it with the Health Officer.
Ah...we concurred that it could be removed for a couple of reasons.
First of all, um... the question really was whether we had the
authority to do that if they needed the requirement for their design.
Second of all, seasonal use is not defined. It is pretty difficult, if
not impossible to enforce. So it was kind of an issue that we felt
wouldn't substantially help public health. It would put a restriction
on the property and we felt like the other requirements, the
Glendon Bio-Filter and some of the other requirements would more
than compensate, so it seemed reasonable and so that was removed
with ah... staff concurrent.
Ah... as far as the soil type goes ah... Mr. Jensen was talking about
whether that was a type five or type six. I need to refer that to
Claire because she is the soil scientist and a... she is highly trained in
soils and she can address that issue.
Slope was verified by Claire that the designer slope was accurate in
the area where the Glendon unit and reserve were to be located and
she can testify to that if she wants.
Ah... the well setback from the Willis well, as we understand it, and
based on Claire's measurements is 90 feet. The waiver said it was
reduce down it to 70 feet for purposes of permit accrual. But it
actually... for the record it is a 90 foot separation. And an
operation and maintenance is required and there is in the ah...
documents you have, actually a copy of the document recorded on
that title - stated in the participating program.
Claire you have some comments on the soil or anything other things
I... questions any?
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 44 of 50
Unknown Male:
Claire McElreath:
The curtain drain!
I'll address that. Um... Brad spoke that it is an alternative system
and not an experimental system. Mr. Jensen also brought up the
setback. He used as ah... explained that the distances are not
correct by using a plot, ah... the boundary of the lot line. And I, in
reviewing the design that Mr. Paysee submitted, went out there and
took the staked Glendon site that I was able to verify that it meet
the sizing per the design. And by myself, one day, I went out there
and walked to the tidelands and measured that distance. Not
feeling very comfortable doing it by myself, considering that it is a
brushy site and it is always much better to have a partner out there
and also wanting to address any problems if I was to get a variation
from Mr. Paysee's assigned, be it less than what he proposed, that
we could address those concerns on the site, ah... asked Mr. Paysee
to come out and ah... do another site verification with me about his
design. I had been out two times previously to the design review to
look at the soils and other slope conditions. Mr. Paysee was out
there, he held one end of the tape, I held the other. We changed
positions to make sure everyone was honest and was able to verify
every setback requirement that Mr. Paysee showed on his design.
As far as the curtain drain goes. The number 18 on Mr. Paysee's
design says ah... a comment about a curtain design but I think that...
that is a generic statement, but specifically that he submits with
every design... every design permit. Specifically with the Glendon
or this site, in particular, there is no curtain drain requirement. It
talks about... Number 18 talks about diverting storm water and that
should be done on every drain field site. We should not have storm
water going over your drain field area and that can be done by a
number of methods. Ah... the approved reserve area was a part of
the approved primary design, that is included in the Glendon sizing
today on the plot plan design that we have. That... so the waiver
setback where it may be only setting the waiver proposal that we
were only addressing the primary system. It was understood from
the design proposal that... that also addressed the reserve area.
The soil type six and not soil five. I have ah... a soil log on the
front of the sewage system application... the sewage application and
a re -inspection form. On the re -inspection form, due to the
information of Mr. Paysee is that the Glendon is only going to use
the 12 top inches or that designs only use the top 12 inches
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22,1998
Page 45 of 50
of soil. The class... the type six application rate was not accessible.
And that is when I put an *(asterisk) next to soil type five on the
re -inspection form and said... made a note specifically about this
site that given the Glendon proposal and it is use of the surface soil
as for disposal, soil type five application rate was suitable given the
structure of the soil.
And a... as far as the slope goes, the site it self has twenty to thirty
percent slope. But in the very, very specific Glendon area, which is
what I wanted to review, as far as correctness or close, it has a
17% slope and that was verified by me standing on the up -end -side
and the down -inside and every angle I get.
Ah...to begin with, I was very concerned when I originally
investigated the site. Ah...for my experience of reviewing sites this
was an obvious case scenario and I understood from the beginning
that I needed to be very careful about all of my review processes.
There is no extra room for error and as a result of that we had five
waivers approved. Ah...we have an O&M (Operation and
Maintenance) that is filed with the deed and the design also address
the specific owner requirements towards . Ah...and the
time dosing was addressed by Brad. Um...um... again, there was a
generic statement on Mr. Paysee's design in number eight that
mentioned a community water supply, but on his design proposal he
does show the single family well, which is what we looked at for
setback, and submitted a waiv... Mr. Paysee submitted a waiver
from the setback requirements and it was approved.
Um... the decommissioned well. We reviewed the setbacks to an
existing well that was not in use and a...the...there might be a
correlation, I don't know, if a decommissioned well is used the
same as an abanding...abandoned well. We have specific
requirements for abandoning procedures from the Department of
Ecology. The Environmental Health Department was not
reviewing this setback, given the status of an abandon well. We
were reviewing it as an existing well but just not in use. It did not
wave that heavily in our review as far as approving that setback.
A...um...I believe that did it as far as issues that were brought up
back in
Mary Jo Cady: Can you explain it again for me? I am not understanding why is
was in this particular site that the curtain drain wasn't necessary.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22. 1998
Page 46 of 50
Claire McElreath:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Paul Jensen:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Paul Jensen:
Cindy Olsen:
Paul Jensen:
Well, we well require a curtain drain in situations where we think
there is underground surface well or surface flows that can impact
drain field disposal area. That was not our concern here as far as
lowing the water table via curtain drain. There was no proposal to
lower the water table. We were accepting it already...ah that it was
a high water table area and we were not going to mitigate that by...
by putting in a curtain drain and attempting to lower it. That was
not an issue. As far as surface water flowing over the proposed
drain field, there is no evidence of that now. Um... and common
sense would be if somebody... if it ever occurred that somebody
would address it, but I cannot at the review stage just bring up
every potential occurrence that might possibly ever occur on the
property. Since there is was no evidence right now of any surface
water erosion or surface water problem then we didn't address it
with the design. But Mr. Paysee addresses it with every design
saying, if there is ever going to be a surface water concern let's
address it. But you don't need to address that with a curtain drain
proposal. You can address that with a burn or just a grading the
property in specific areas, make sure your going to get the flow
away from the drain field, and he and his installer, if he saw that
concern would address that, and that is why he made those generic
comments.
Thank you!
Is there any other questions?
I'm... five or six.
Have him come up to the microphone.
Can you come up to the microphone, please. And state your name
again for the record, for the recording.
For the questions I have are Claire's on going through this....
This is Mr. Jensen.
She said that there was a high ground water level on this property
and my question to her whether ah... there was... there is a very
slowly permeable soil? seat.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 47 of 50
Claire McElreath:
Paul Jensen:
Cindy Olsen:
Paul Jensen:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
When we have a type six soil, that is a silty clay or clay. It doesn't
have any of the coarser fragments, such as sand in it, that helps ah...
break up the soil particles and allow drainage. Ah... that is called a
slowly permeable soil, a ten. Sometimes it is considered a
restrictive layer. When you have a class five or a type five soil it is
in a silt loam category. There is actually soil particles that you have
a combination of sand, silt, and clay making up the soil particles.
On this site, I particularly said, that we had aggregation in the soil
that you were able to have peds that you were ten, soil combined
together to create little micro -channels or macro -channels to allow
drainage and that was assisted by the organic content in the soil
too. When you have soil peds formed and you have organic coding
around those peds they act as opposites from the other peds so that
enhances. That is why people add that to their garden soil, it
enhances the voracity of the soil. So in the upper portion of the
soil, the top 12 inches, we had conditions where we had the micro
and macro four channels develop so we could have the movement
of water down below. And I... I expressed that it was appropriate
for only the upper 12 inches be considered to be a class five and
then down below that we did have our concerns still and that
related totally to the Glendon System. I isolated the soil comments
to the proposal of the Glendon System that uses the upper portion
of the soil and not the 12 inches there below.
Is that addressed?
Ok. Thank you!
Did you have other questions?
Not
Anymore comments from the staff or audience?
No questions?
I think all of mine have been verified.
Ok.
Action by the Board at this time?
I move that we concur with the action of the Health Officer
and his final determination dated, March 5t, 1998.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing 11
May 22, 1998
Page 48 of 50
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
John Bolender:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
John Bolender:
Cindy Olsen:
John Bolender:
Mary Jo Cady:
Cindy Olsen:
Mary Jo Cady:
John Bolender:
What was that date?
March 5th.
Second.
It's been moved and seconded that we concur with the
determination made at the last hearing of March 5t''(1998), by
the Hearing Examiner, Mark Trucksess. All those in favor?
Can we have a discussion?
Oh, yes, discussion first, position, discussions. Sorry!
I would like to also add to that, that we adopt the staff reports,
the exhibits, and the evidence as our finding and conclusions.
Do I have a seconded on that?
Second.
It has also been moved and seconded to adopt the findings and
conclusions as presented by our staff. We will make that a part
of the entire motion. Any discussion on the whole?
I guess I would just fall back on ah... the evidence that was
presented at the Health Officer's Hearings and the evidence
that we've heard today ah... clearly seems to indicate that this
a approved technology and that it is appropriate for the site
that ah... being proposed for.
The issues that Mr. Jensen brought up I wrote down and
before I was even able to answer them, they were answered by
staff. Ahm... they were the same issues that you picked up on
and I am very comfortable with that.
All those in favor?
Aye.
Aye.
Mason County Board of Health
Jensen Appeal Hearing II
May 22, 1998
Page 49 of 50
Cindy Olsen: Aye.
Passes unanimously.
Thank you!
Hearing adjourned at 3.55 p.m..
Respectfully submitted by
Sonja A. Rau, Transcriptionist
Board of Health
Cindy Olsell, Chairperson
Bolender, Board Member
Mary Jo Cady, Board Member